Helene:
Hey there, and welcome back to our podcast. I’m being excited to have Monica Rose, a.k.a Shameless Mind Boss on our podcast today. She helps stressed out procurement women prevent burnout and double the impact. With her three-step method, you can reduce work stress, grow your earning power, and achieve success without sacrificing ambition. So buckle up for an insightful conversation with Monica. Welcome to the show, Monica.
Monica Rose:
Hi, Helene.
Helene:
So what led you to procurement?
Monica Rose:
So what led me into procurement, myself working in the field, like a lot of other people, I fell into it or it chose me as it were. So I went into, previously was a QS in the construction field. When I moved into the railway, as I was moving myself through the company, I kind of just morphed into procurement, found it was good ground for me. I love stakeholder engagement, I love strategy building, I love problem-solving. And on the railway you had to be quick. It was mostly reactive working in the depots and maintenance. So that was my journey into procurement, not a bad one.
Helene:
And then what happened?
Monica Rose:
And then what happened? And then I burned out.
Helene:
I figured that out. Yes.
Monica Rose:
And then I burned out. So it wasn’t necessarily all about procurement. I had other things going on in life at that particular time. But procurement, I find, is that field where I say it’s like a playground for the people pleaser in that business support role, you’ve got people coming to you with their own demands. I need this, I need that, I need that. And where it’s such a misunderstood profession as well by the outside, you find yourself constantly maneuvering yourself and your contracts and what you had to fit other people. So that was something that was ongoing and it was constant. But then outside of that, I was also doing the same in my personal life. And so I had two burnout episodes in the space of six months. Didn’t learn from the first one. I was off for two weeks. I came back and thought, “I’m fine. I could do this is, not a problem.”
Very quickly ended up in a second episode, there were a lot of changes happening at work. I had a large team who were struggling with the changes and struggling to keep up with the demands of the job as well. And so, I burnt out again. This time, the doctor said you are not going back for a while and when you do, we’re phasing you back in. So in that time I was placed onto talking therapy and CBT, and that was it for me.
CBT was a game changer, a total game changer. It just opened me up to myself, how I think, how I behave, all in the effort to make things look like they were fine. As women do, “I’m fine, I’m fine, everything’s okay. That’s okay, that’s okay, that’s okay.” Everything was okay. And never find a time to come back to ourselves. So CBT was the start of my journey into coaching really. And when I stepped back into work, I realized all the ways that it wasn’t actually beneficial for me but I saw all the ways that I could help other people. And so that was my decision to leave the organization and start to figure out how I could do that. Always with the view to come back to help people. But that’s my journey.
Stress & Burnout in Women in Procurement
Helene:
So yes, thank you Monica. So as you can imagine, Monica will answer the burning questions about women in procurement and burnout. So I will give you, throw a few numbers to kind of get a sense of what we’re talking about. So women are still unable to switch off from work, with many concerned with impact on career progression. We’ve all been there. And only 45% of women rated the ability to switch off from work as good and extremely good. And 34 rated it as poor and extremely poor. So one of the common stressors faced by women in procurement, how do they differ from men in the field? Can this immense burnout among women in procurement be prevented? So let’s buckle up for a captivating conversation and let’s get started with our first questions. So we have touched upon that, why you decided to go into coaching women, but could you give us really what inspire you beyond your personal experience to go into coaching women in procurement on burnout?
Monica Rose:
Yeah. Conditioning. So I have a big thing about the patriarchy. So really-
Helene:
Of course, I’m all ears, I’m fine.
Monica Rose:
But it all starts with our conditioning. So earlier when I said procurement is the playground for a people pleaser or even a perfectionist, you just want to do right, you don’t want to upset people. And there’s always this fear that, I mean talking personally, there’s this fear, and the women, I also know, that some that something’s going to go wrong, something’s going to drop. And so it is that constant, have I done enough? Was it enough? Do they think that I’m good enough at my job? If I had to say no to something, I’m like, “Oh, my God, are they talking about me behind my back? Are they going to see other people? Will this affect my performance review?” There’s all that stuff that comes up for women all because of our conditioning to be the giver. It’s always about the giving and supporting and making sure everybody else is fine before we are.
So we are constantly laying our career progression at the door of everyone else. So they’re the ones that give us us permission. They’re the ones that will facilitate the way as it were, as long as we are doing a good enough job. So that was really why I want to support women in my coaching. I mean, a lot of people… I have coached men, I do coach men, they have their own issues with regards to how they were conditioned in the patriarchal society.
So it’s not really that men are winning all the time, it’s just the way that the system’s set up. But the women really are down here because the system is set up for men. And this is where I was like, I want to change this. I want women to know that actually our power to manage stress avoid burnout whilst at the same time succeeding in our careers, comes from within. It doesn’t belong to anyone else. And once we are able to do that, it is amazing what happens around you. So what you thought was actually the truth, was actually a narrative that you kept recreating yourself because no one’s told you any different. And so that’s really the coaching I do with women in procurement.
Helene:
No, and I think that all women can relate to that. I think that we have already had that thing that that’s a joke that we made, we make often is that who’s the only person in the house who knows where are everyone’s skis, T-shirt bag, and all of this.
Monica Rose:
Exactly.
Helene:
That’s us. And why? Not because we’re better than everyone else at spotting things. I mean I don’t think that’s gender-related. It’s just because the other ones don’t care because they just take care of themselves. And I’m not saying that, I think to your point, that we don’t need to stop caring about other people, but I think that we need to keep a space in our life for ourselves, it is super hard. It’s really hard.
Monica Rose:
It is. Yeah, it is. Because the reason we do anything is because of how we will feel. And so if we’ve been brought up to believe that we have an effect on other people’s emotions, it’s like, “Oh, you made that person upset,” or “Be a nice girl and do this.” I mean, we were being fed those little messages.
When we are then in that position, sort of situation where it’s, if we go back to procurement for instance, I need this by tomorrow and this thing is leakage from a contract and everything in your system is like, but then the other side is like, but we have to say yes. We have to say yes, we have to say yes you have… And then that’s that real disconnect there. And that’s where the burnout starts to happen because we are creating that stress within us because we’re like, “If I say no, I will feel bad and I’ll be a bad person.” Truth is if you said no and felt like a bad person, that would probably last a few hours. You’ll get over it. As will they.
Helene:
Yeah.
Monica Rose:
But we are not brought up to do that. Whereas guys, men, boys, they’re brought up to get into a rough and tumble, I mean live above a playground. I see them playing and I see how they play and I was like, “If girls play more like that, what would we be like in the workplace?”
Helene:
No, it’s interesting you’re saying that. So we are more used to please other people while boys are more used to make their way and that’s it. But I think it also reflects in the way we work. I mean, women tend to always try to be perfect, try to check all the boxes. I’m sure you’ve heard about the statistics about how women tend to look at a job offer and make sure that they answer all the little lines, when men will say, “Oh, I’m 50%, I’m good enough. That’s it.”
And I think that confidence that is obviously construct and not something that is innate to women or men or whatever we call ourselves. I think this is really how we were brought up. And then that’s what you were saying, the narrative that we’ve been told and this is how your life will be, and how can we… I mean, we say in French that the deconstructed male, I don’t know if that apply in English, but that’s how can we for both men and women deconstruct those narratives, deconstruct those things and make sure that we have a fair chance whoever we are and whatever we want to be actually?
Monica Rose:
That’s a really good question. So I guess where does it start? It starts with, let’s bring it back to basics, the skills. Okay, so you have women and we’re talking about the messages that we are fed and how we need to be perfect at everything. So if you think about on a daily basis, we are being told that you need to look a certain way, dress a certain way, use this certain product on your hair or whatever it will be. And then the other side is like, but don’t be too much of this, don’t be too aggressive. Don’t be, don’t speak up, don’t take up space, play it small, make sure everybody is happy. So it’s that that we are as women are being fed. And so we’re often looking for permission-
Helene:
Yes.
Monica Rose:
… to do stuff. And what needs to be done to deconstruct that? I think it starts with leadership, I think. So wherever you are, the leadership, creating an open environment where everybody has an opportunity to speak up. So it could even just be the way in that you might be in a meeting room, how you might brainstorm and innovate around ideas. How do you create comfort for everybody to speak up rather than leave it open to the ones who’ve been conditioned and brought up to take up to that space where women haven’t?
Maybe the leadership might reconstruct your meetings, your agenda, how does the agenda work so that everybody has an opportunity to speak up? So I mean coaching is amazing. That’s why I do it, the one-on-one coaching with someone to actually talk to them about their vulnerabilities, their fears, and to give them the power to speak up. But also within the organizations, how do we create that space? I mean having the women groups and everything else to help create opportunities is amazing, but it’s really about A, internal work, and B, giving them the environment where they can actually practice applying that internal work as well.
As for the guys. I mean, men, boys will be boys. Sorry to say that. I have met… I do know if few guys who are actually waking up and talking to women about the stuff that they experienced. I mean there’s one particular gentleman who works for a construction company. We were talking one day, and it just gave me joy when he actually in the mirror and goes, “I obviously haven’t appreciated what a woman goes through before she gets into the office.” So what she’s had to do the morning is she’s got children, what she’s had to do, the children, the people she’s had to navigate on her commute to work, all of that stuff. And he’s like, “But then she comes into work and we expect her to boom, get into it and start performing as it were.” So it is really that kind of awareness and having enough time to pause to be like, okay, what does she need right now-
Helene:
Yeah.
Monica Rose:
… that we are not getting.
Helene:
No, but I think that that’s very interesting. And to your point, I was discussing with my 21-year-old. He’s a man obviously I said boy, but I guess at that 21 you are starting to go to…
But he was telling me that he also feels a lot of pressure on what is expected as a man as opposed to women. And he was saying that he feels like there’s much more than two roads. He feels like being a man can be so many different things. And that’s the same thing for women. And why can’t we explore the road that we want at some point and then change afterwards. And I think that you were mentioning that you’re also coaching men.
I think that there’s a whole thing around the pressure that it put on men and women because of what we expect from them based on gender, which does I think does not make much sense, but I think that women have even more pressure because, as you were saying, they’re the carer at home, at work, everywhere, and it’s a lot to take on. And so we discussed about the stressors, we discussed about how to involve the leadership team. But I think that we start to talk a lot about stress and burnout in the company in general and in procurement in particular. Are there alarming trends? Is there really, is it only something that we feel like because it’s a buzzy word or is it really an alarming trend?
Monica Rose:
It is really a trend. And, of course, it’s come out so, of course, it has. But with Covid and lockdown, really kind of brought it to life. And a lot of this stuff was happening for people in isolation. So they say, I’ve heard this term before and I thought it was quite beautiful. It’s like communities healing. And so having those people around you who you can talk to, who you can… Even just a vibe off the energy from and you are getting this kind of unspoken assurance that everything’s okay. But when a lot of us are now working in isolation and there’s a very blurred line between where work is and where home is, where do you get your time to download, offload, to shake off the stresses, to kind of reset, regroup, and go back into that stuff? Again, especially for women, because even during lockdown, they were still doing two thirds of the childcare as well as having to do the work and et cetera, et cetera.
Unfortunately it’s just those familiar roles that we fall into. And so until someone can actually demonstrate to them is that there’s other ways for this to be, especially for women that nothing’s going to fall apart if you decide not to do the laundry today. Those small things, just those little things. What would happen if I didn’t do that and it’s like after so many days is that, are people going to say things and then what am I going to say there? It’s like, well, you are perfectly able to do…
It’s those little things that we haven’t been given permission to do. It’s habits that we fall into. And again, I use the term hustle for safety. So we burn out when we are hustling for safety, we are trying to out outrun our uncomfortable emotions. And so once we feel that we are already in a stressful situation and things might be a little bit out of our control, again, working in procurement with a hybrid setup at work, you’re going in, you might see your team, you might not see your team, you’re missing out on conversations that you might been having in the tea room. So all of a sudden you’re…
For women have said that it’s almost like they feel like they’re picking up less, less information, less knowledge. They’re feeling quite isolated and not knowing what’s happening out beyond the screen. So when that’s happening, your focus will then start looking for other areas of danger like that. So you’re looking like, “Okay, is everything okay over there? Is everything okay over there? Is that, am I really losing control? Is this danger real?” That builds up, builds up, builds up, builds up. So if we don’t know it’s happening quite quickly, it become chronic stress and then from chronic stress it can become burnout.
So it’s again, I’ve spoken about this before with someone else, how is the leadership created an environment, even the hybrid working environment to ensure that people’s mental well-being is being catered for but not just as a talking therapy thing when it’s too late. I say it’s too late. Once symptoms are coming, it’s too late. But actually, okay, so we know this is happening, we know the reasons that it might be happening. So how do we then foster an environment where we still have that belonging, where we still have enabled people to share information, to gather information, to have that small talk that have people got buddies for instance, have people got their little tribes? It’s all of that.
Helene:
No, that that’s a very good point. I was thinking about how do you as a manager and then as an organization put in place a system where you can capture those signals, understand who might be less well, put it that way, and might need support. And then kind of the first part. We often say, “Oh, we have a hotline that you can call.” Okay, cool.
But the problem is that you might not yourself realize that you are burning out yet because this is you and this is your environment. People around you might see signs and if they’re told, if they’re trying to recognize signs and I think that managers… That should be part of becoming a manager is to care about the wellness of the people in your team. And you might see those. And it’s obvious when you have colleagues that think through a burnout, then you think back and the signs were there month before. And if you’re trying to recognize that, you say, “Hey, you know what? That person who was so great on deadlines and so good at everything suddenly started to mess up things to be disorganized to do this, that means that there’s a problem.” That’s not, oh, she has a period. I’m not saying her period. Exactly.
Monica Rose:
She has her period. She was hormonal.
Helene:
I was not going there but okay. You know what I mean. I think that
Monica Rose:
That is also very much part of it though as well. I mean, if we’re going to go there, there were times where I always remember we’d have our… What was it called? Approvals meeting. Every four weeks, happened to learn on the first day of my period, worst day ever. And I was not performing. But it’s little things like because I’d be very aware of it in the morning. I’d be really stressed.
Helene:
And you feel guilty! For something-
Monica Rose:
Yes.
Helene:
… you have absolutely no control on.
Monica Rose:
Yes. But it’s all of that stuff. All of that stuff. And it can sometimes feel really big when we start talking about the nuances about it.
Helene:
Yes.
Monica Rose:
Because starts to really think but… It’s just small steps because once people start feeling confident about addressing those small steps, it actually snowballs. They gain its own momentum. So it’s really just starting with those small steps.
Helene:
There’s one thing, just to give you a very, very small example. I remember going into a company bathroom. So I went to the bathroom. And here, for free, you could find every period material that was very cool for women. And I think that men have no idea how stressful it is to be in a situation where we have to deal with whatever we have in our bag and what we can find in the bathroom. But we all know about that. And I think that they are the big things that we say and our values and we do things and then there’s all those little actions where leadership shows that they care and-
Monica Rose:
They care. Right.
Helene:
And they want things to be better and easier for everyone.
Monica Rose:
Yeah.
Helene:
And I’m not even talking about giving… In France now, they’re discussing to give a two-day or three-day period for women who have painful periods like they did in Spain. So I’m not even talking about that. I’m really talking about thinking about giving a place to pump your milk when you’re breastfeeding. I did that.
Monica Rose:
Yeah.
Helene:
I did that between books and archive, in a room that I had only the key.
Monica Rose:
Oh, goodness.
Helene:
There was this for 18 months. I did it. My colleagues were wonderful. But that was an arrangement between us. That was not something that management organized. I had to discuss with them, but they were awesome. Then all of these are little things that seem like, oh, it’s super work, but actually that’s what makes life easier. And I think that to your point, I think there’s so much stress already in the work. We work from home partially, then we go to the office, we don’t know where is work, where is not work. We feel guilty when, in the middle of a work day, we have to take care of our kids. Well, it is normal. I mean, we can’t say, “No, I’m not going to take care of them, my work.” No, nobody would say that. And if we were, –
Monica Rose:
Yeah.
Helene:
Their fathers would do exactly the same.
Monica Rose:
Exactly the same. Yeah.
Helene:
So this is not us. This is being a parent. So all of this is making a lot of stress. And I think when leadership show those little signs, trying really to build, as you were saying, a safe environment for both men and women-
Monica Rose:
And women, yeah.
Helene:
But with specific attentions to them [
Monica Rose:
To the detail, to, absolutely, to the detail. And it does, it creates that sense of belonging. And then when you belong, then you’re able to be a little bit more vulnerable. And it’s being vulnerable that really is one of the biggest things in managing stress.
Helene:
Yes.
Monica Rose:
Again, as women is trying that thing, when you’re trying to hold it together and be strong. Remember saying to my line manager, the first time I’ve burnt out, I said to… “So I don’t know who I am anymore.” Because I always thought I was that woman who can, I always thought I was superwoman. And I was like, “And that happened to me,” and I was like, “I don’t know what happens from here.” And what I tried to do was to become that same person I was before. And again after CBT, it really was like actually vulnerability is beautiful.
Helene:
You know what? What I think is important too is that you change and that’s fine.
Monica Rose:
Yeah.
Helene:
And I’m not the same person I was 20 years ago and it’s good.
Monica Rose:
Yeah. It is.
Helene:
Yeah. Right? So let’s now go to some practical. Let’s imagine that we have women and men probably that are listening to us that may feel stressed and feel like, as you’re saying, “I’m not sure I recognize myself anymore.” What are those signs that should make you raise… You say that I need help?
Monica Rose:
Okay, so I often go to… You often recognize your behaviors beforehand. Okay? And also… Let’s start with the behaviors. So you recognize your behavior, so, but beforehand. Do you find yourself trying to becoming a bit more controlling than you normally are? Not that controlled. There’s nothing wrong with a controller. They’re actually quite useful people. So sometimes you might overdo it, you might be overdoing it and then people might be getting upset and you might .. But then you translate that as them being difficult.
Helene:
Yeah, but you’re talking about a change. You’re talking about a change in you were controlling your
Monica Rose:
Yeah. You are overdoing it. So you might be over-perfecting, you might be over-pleasing, you might find yourself over- controlling. You might even be a little bit… You might find yourself, this is more the anxiety side of things, but hyperaware of things that might be going wrong. So you might notice it or someone else might have said that to you. So that’s one of the signs. When you notice that, I always suggest to my clients to just to take a little pause and to note what’s going on in their body, am I feeling tense right now? Am I clenching my fist? One of my favorites is the leg tap. Is my leg tapping? Because it’s not something people do all the time. In a hyper stress you can see that happening. Yes. So what is my body doing differently? How am I feeling? How am I feeling in the morning?
So that’s one of the things to become aware of. That’s one of the top things I do with my clients is meditation, exercise, and gratitude. Now those have been overused. They are overused. You hear it out there all the time. And meditation is not for everyone. But then if we were to just practice some mindfulness in place of sitting down for 15 minutes doing the meditation… So in that moment when you feel like I have to get this done, I have to get it done perfectly. And you find yourself stressing over the last sentence in an email, it might just be to be like, “Okay, I’m stressing over this last sentence in the email.” And just really just pause, for instance, and just really take note of the keyboard. It’s really just being in that space.
Take note of the keyboard. It could be, “Okay, I need to go out for a walk.” But when you’re out for a walk, just say to yourself, I’m really going to be mindful of my steps as I’m walking. So it is really just bringing yourself back to the present. Because when we are stressed, we are either stressing about something that’s happened in the past or we are stressing about something that’s coming in the future. So these many pauses that I suggest when recognize those moments of tenseness or pressure of overdoing, just take a pause and do something to bring yourself back to the present. So that’s meditation. Meditate in sitting, people say, “I can’t meditate, my mind’s racing,” et cetera, et cetera. That’s the whole point.
Helene:
Yeah.
Monica Rose:
That was the whole point, right?
Helene:
No, I agree.
Monica Rose:
Because it’s a real discipline. It’s like you have said to your racing brain, “I am going to sit here and this is about me.” There’s no one else here. You’re not doing it for anyone else. No, you’re doing it for yourself. And you’re just becoming aware of the thoughts that you’re having and being really curious about them and being a witness. And the more we are able to do this, it’s really weird, it sometimes feels like an out-of-body experience where a situation that’s been triggering you for the past week, all of a sudden one day, you’re like, “I’m all right.” You’ve taken a bit that long enough pause that it’s no longer as triggering as it was. But that comes from that sense of self-discipline and actually slowing down enough. For the gratitude, again, it’s bringing you back to present. What we often forget in times of stress is that we’ve overcome obstacles and stressful situations before. So sometimes that stressful situation is very real, especially with procurement.
You might be on in late tender or something’s got to be signed off today, tomorrow. It’s like you are having to work really late, long hours. You still got the kids to deal with. Or as a man, you still got the families, men still have families to deal with when they come home. Just when you’re able to stop and just be grateful for what you have in that moment, whether it be grateful for my health, or I’m grateful that I took a lunch break today. I’m grateful that I have a family to come home to. It could be any of that thing just to ground you in that moment. And also to remind yourself, we’ve done hard things before. We’ve done hard things before. Similar to a form of meditation, similar to pausing and doing some mindfulness. They all kind of think together. Those would be my top tips, to be honest.
Helene:
No, I can totally relate. And to your point, I met a fantastic nurse when I was pregnant with my first child who gave me some tips to relax. I had a very painful pregnancy, not because it was a difficult one, but because the muscles were like that. And so she taught me how to relax your whole body and just said, “The pain is worse because you’re so tight and stressed all the time.” So I learned how to do that and I’m using over and over and over.
And I think to your point, taking a time in your seat just to close your eyes and try to relax, go on a walk, go out. I have a dog. I can walk my dog. That’s a pretty good way to kind of relax. And not with your iPhone and your thingy, just you. And all of this is really, really helpful. But every woman and person actually have to find their own ways. It can be meditation, it can be gratitude. All of this are very good thing. I think gratitude, that’s the interest of saying that every day you have a reason to be happy for something and grateful for something. And that’s also very good point because, “Oh, I feel like I’m doing nothing.” And when you look at the pile of thing that person has achieved.
Monica Rose:
Right. We feel we have it. Yeah, absolutely. So every day I get my child to school on time, I’m celebrating. That’s an achievement. That is an achievement for us. But also it’s like the gratitude, what we have to be careful of is that we are not necessarily saying that I’ll be grateful because other people have it worse.
Helene:
No, we agree.
Monica Rose:
Yeah, exactly. As you said, it’s really about being grateful for you and who you are and what you have achieved to get here today.
Helene:
No, absolutely.
Monica Rose:
And you’re doing this role for a reason. Exactly that. Yeah.
Helene:
So if we need now to wrap up and give one takeaway, one thing that we want the person who are listeners to remember about that conversation. I know it’s a hard exercise. What would be one thing that you’d like them to remember?
Monica Rose:
So this, I’m trying to think of how to wrap this up. Because when we talk about being that giver and supporting all the time and even very little space for you and other people’s emotions, I think curiosity. The curiosity is definitely the one, the reason for you feeling and the reason for you doing. Is it coming from the place of, “I’m doing this because I don’t want them to think bad of me”? I think that’s the thing. Am I doing it because I don’t want them to them to feel like I’m failing? So it is really that, where is this action? Where is this thinking coming from? It’s that self-inquiry. Always remember self-inquiry. I think that for me is the one.
Helene:
Yeah, it’s about knowing yourself. But also one step further, you know where your actions come from and you also need to know your limits. And at some point, you need to say, “No, I can’t do that.”
Monica Rose:
Exactly.
Helene:
I know you expect a lot from me. But right now, there’s so much I can do and my plate is full. And I think that-
Monica Rose:
Yeah.
Helene:
We didn’t talk about that. No, during this whole conversation, I think it’s central to helping people to learn how to say no. Of course, not to say no right away, but at some point, you need to be very clear on what you can do and not. And that comes also with managers that are very clear on what’s the work to be done and be honest on what are the real deadlines and what are the real expectations and not over-expecting. And then putting deadlines that are really, really super strict just because they want a week before to think about it, or… No, if the manager gives clear expectations with clear deadlines that are manageable, and then the person says clearly, “Yes, I can do it,” or “No, this is not doable. I need an extra day or two to do it,” then I’m sure that we’ll be in much better position. Right?
Monica Rose:
Yeah. And that is it. Absolutely. That’s that self… I’m doing it because I have to, should do, or because I want to. But then it’s also, exactly what you said, is it is what’s the end game here? Is it a popularity contest? If it’s a popularity contest, you are always going to lose. And then that’s where the burnout’s going to happen. Or is it actually about the work and what we’ve got in place and what’s actually for benefit to the organization and the team. And so, that self-inquiry, definitely.
Helene:
Wonderful. Thank you, Monica. That was very insightful.
Monica Rose:
Thank you, Helene. Any time.
Helene:
And that brings us to the end of today’s episode of our special series Women in Procurement on The Procurement Game Changers podcast. I want to express my deepest gratitude to our amazing guest, Monica, for sharing her expertise and shedding light on the important topic of burnout among women in procurement. It was truly an enlightening and engaging discussion. Before we conclude, if you are in need of support or have any questions regarding burnout, don’t hesitate to reach out to Monica or me. We’re here to provide assistance and guidance if need. If you found this episode valuable and enjoyed the conversation, give us a thumbs up, subscribe to our channel, and, of course, share this podcast with your colleagues and peer. Together we can spread knowledge, ignite change, and create a better future for procurement. So thank you for tuning in. Stay safe, keep sourcing, and until next time. Au revoir.
PS: To listen to our previous PGC episode CLICK HERE!
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